20 INTL PRESIDENT FRIEND: Oh, well, it's
21 something to aim for. Scott, Agenda Item 22.
22 MR. SCHULTZ: Agenda Item No. 22,
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1 Committee No, 5, ratification process. The Committee
2 sends this motion to the Board without
3 recommendation.
4 INTL PRESIDENT FRIEND: So, the Committee
5 has debated Agenda Item 22, and essentially they have
6 no recommendation for you, so it is on the floor, as
7 it was originally proposed. Is there discussion? We
8 are amending the Policy Manual, so, when we get to
9 the vote, it is a majority. Discussion on Agenda
10 Item 22? Mike -- I'm sorry, Gary's first, and the
11 Mike, the dueling MEC Presidents. Gary?
12 MR. RICHARDSON: Richardson, Council 66,
13 for America West Airlines. I'd like to thank the
14 Committee and the delegates for accepting this as a
15 late Agenda Item.
16 As I had told you before when I proposed
17 this as a late Agenda Item, at our last Council
18 meeting, over a hundred of our members attended that
19 meeting, carrying with them, 300 proxies, and
20 requested that I bring this forward as a late Agenda
21 Item.
22 I also would like to recognize that we do
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1 have members of AFA Council 66 in attendance today.
2 Thank you for attending. I appreciate that.
3 What this Agenda Item contemplates, is
4 that in the event of merger between two or more
5 carriers, and the ratification vote for a single
6 agreement, that that ratification vote will be taken
7 and it will be a separate ratification vote.
8 Each of the carriers would have a say in
9 that ratification process. My members feel that that
10 would be in their best interests, that they would
11 have an equal voice in the ratification process.
12 It's important for the delegates to remember that
13 single-contract negotiations, at least in this
14 particular case, don't fall within the purview of
15 Section 6 negotiations.
16 Our Constitution is rather silent on that
17 aspect. As you know, there is a membership
18 ratification under Section 6, but under single-
19 contract talks, it doesn't necessarily address that
20 in our Constitution.
21 We need to ensure that there is a
22 membership ratification and that members do have the
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1 ability to ratify a single agreement, and I think
2 that the delegates do need to take into account, that
3 particular issue and the silence in the Constitution
4 and Bylaws.
5 My members -- in this particular instance,
6 we have about 2,300 members at America West and 4,400
7 or so at USAirways. If you took the combined vote
8 and a 50-percent-plus-one of that combined vote, you
9 would have around 3,000 or so members that would be
10 needed to cast a vote, affirmative, to accept an
11 agreement.
12 With America West having only 2,200 votes
13 our members believe that their vote doesn't count.
14 This Agenda Item allows that vote and their voice to
15 be heard and that vote to be counted.
16 It may be a perception issue, but it's
17 reality for our members. I urge the delegates to
18 vote for this Agenda Item in the affirmative. Thank
19 you.
20 INTL PRESIDENT FRIEND: Mike and then
21 Lynne.
22 MR. FLORES: Now I'm going to make a
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1 speech. I want to thank the Committee --
2 INTL PRESIDENT FRIEND: Could you identify
3 yourself for the record, please?
4 MR. FLORES: I'm sorry. Mike Flores,
5 USAirways MEC.
6 I want to thank the Committee for the
7 consideration and time that they spent in allowing us
8 to come and talk to the Committee and give them our
9 views, and, you know, thank Gary. Gary and I work
10 very well together; we always have.
11 This really is not an East-West issue.
12 That's why I'm glad that the Committee actually, you
13 know, offered it back to the Board with no
14 recommendation, because that's where it really
15 belongs.
16 This is about the entire body, the entire
17 membership in AFA, and the Committee did do the right
18 thing by sending it back to the floor without a
19 recommendation.
20 I appreciate that. It's here on the
21 floor, because that's where it needs to be. The
22 Board needs to understand the consequences of what
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1 this Agenda Item is asking. It's my belief that what
2 it's going to do, is cause nothing but havoc and
3 divisiveness.
4 No one has been merged, you know, as a
5 verb, more than USAirways. I mean, it seems like --
6 I've been here since 1982, and people are still
7 talking about Allegheny-Mohawk, literally.
8 You know, we've gone through PSA, gone
9 through Piedmont, Trump Shuttle, and now America
10 West, and there was never a split vote, there was
11 never a separate ratification on each side.
12 I believe that the Constitution and Bylaws
13 is silent for a reason, and, in fact, I don't even
14 think it is silent. It creates a voice for both
15 sides, and that's called the Joint Negotiating
16 Committee.
17 Each side is represented by an equal
18 number of members and that Committee comes together
19 to look at the two contracts and look at the needs of
20 both memberships and tries to work into a contract
21 that meets everyone's needs.
22 And that's where the voice is. What this
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1 Agenda Item would do -- and as an aside to that, at
2 last year's Board, I actually put an amendment out,
3 that passed, to increase the size of the Joint
4 Negotiating Committees by one member on each side,
5 because I thought, after I got into it, that two is
6 not enough from each side.
7 And "side" is the wrong word, but from
8 each carrier. And that did pass, so there will be,
9 in future mergers, an increased Joint Negotiating
10 Committee, which increases the voice for both
11 carriers.
12 What this item would do, it would give a
13 more weighted voice to the smaller group. And so the
14 smaller group, then, would end up, rather than
15 getting what they seek, which is equality, they would
16 end up having control.
17 Is that what we're about? I don't think
18 so. I think we're about a majority. That's the way
19 we do things. That's the way we ratify contracts,
20 and this Agenda Item, if passed, would have the
21 potential to inevitably take that process away, allow
22 the minority to continue to stall or -- and I'm not
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1 saying that's what's happening here, but it would
2 give that smaller group, the ability to overrule the
3 larger group or the majority, and that isn't what we
4 want, I don't believe.
5 And as far as single-Council/multi-
6 Council, here's the way it works: When a multi-
7 Council airline ratifies a contract, we don't do it,
8 base by base. One base can't hold up a contract
9 ratification vote, yes or no; it is the majority of
10 the people that vote, that would ratify or not, that
11 contract, and that's the way it needs to stay.
12 We can't -- this is too dangerous to allow
13 a system that would allow a minority group to control
14 the process. This is a democratic Union and we need
15 to keep it that way, and I urge you to consider my
16 thoughts. Thanks.
17 (Applause.)
18 INTL PRESIDENT FRIEND: Len, I had you on
19 the list. Pass? Shawn?
20 MR. FIVECOAT: Council 93, Shawn Fivecoat.
21 I was on the Committee for this, and we debated and
22 hashed this thing for a good amount of time.
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1 And I promised them that I wouldn't get up
2 and speak on this particular issue, but I -- and I
3 don't want to be critical in any way. I think this
4 is a basic communications problem.
5 You're geographically challenged, that you
6 have a huge group of people in the Northeast, and you
7 have a huge group of people in Phoenix, and there's
8 no connect between the two.
9 We're all Flight Attendants, we all want
10 the same thing. I think that this problem can be
11 solved, if there's an improvement in communication,
12 and build trust between these two groups. Thank you.
13 (Applause.)
14 INTL PRESIDENT FRIEND: Anyone else?
15 Gary?
16 MR. RICHARDSON: Yes, and thank you for
17 those comments, and, thank you, Mike, for sharing
18 your concerns on that.
19 It's not about an equal issue at the joint
20 negotiating table. We are speaking as one voice on
21 the joint negotiating table.
22 This is about a ratification process for
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1 the membership, and in that process, as you know, in
2 our Constitution and Bylaws, we have a separate
3 process in place, keeping the MECs separate, keeping
4 the contract separate, keeping all aspects of the
5 identity of the individual carrier separate, until
6 the time that there is a ratified, single agreement.
7 What this Agenda Item allows, is to also
8 keep that ratification process separate. It's not
9 unheard of in other Unions within this country. ALPA
10 has a separate ratification process, not to be saying
11 that we should be listening to ALPA, but, you know,
12 they do have that separate ratification process.
13 And we are talking about majority. Each
14 side in this merger, or each carrier in this merger,
15 the majority of those members would decide whether to
16 ratify an agreement or not. So we do still speak to
17 that majority issue. Thank you.
18 INTL PRESIDENT FRIEND: Okay, Mike.
19 MR. FLORES: To Shawn's point --
20 INTL PRESIDENT FRIEND: And you are?
21 MR. FLORES: I am the same as I was five
22 minutes ago, Mike Flores, USAirways MEC. I'm sorry
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1 that I always forget to introduce myself at every
2 Board that I've been to. I don't know why. I
3 apologize.
4 INTL PRESIDENT FRIEND: And we only do
5 that because we have a Court Reporter and when
6 someone reads the transcript 20 years from now, they
7 won't know who you are, making all these brilliant
8 statements.
9 (Laughter.)
10 MR. FLORES: Ah, flattery, thank you.
11 To Shawn's point, both MECs, I think, have
12 tried to do a pretty good job of keeping each other
13 informed of what's going on. I mean, the members
14 read each other's e-Lines quite frequently. They're
15 on each other's mailing lists.
16 We've done that. You know, this is just
17 part of things that happen in a merger. There are
18 going to be differences of opinion. The two
19 contracts are quite diverse.
20 United's, Gary and my commitment, and our
21 Committee's commitment is to take the best of both
22 contracts and then some. I mean, that is the point
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1 here.
2 This is the first opportunity for an
3 airline that's been in bankruptcy and an airline that
4 would have been in bankruptcy, if this merger hadn't
5 happened, to start to bring this profession back, and
6 we're extremely committed to doing that.
7 These Flight Attendants are by no means
8 going to ratify something that contains just a few
9 crumbs. That is not going to happen. But, again, I
10 say that this is about democracy; it's about
11 majority. That's what has to remain, because if we
12 allow a process to be put into place that takes that
13 away, we are going to all live to regret it. Thanks.
14 (Applause.)
15 INTL PRESIDENT FRIEND: John?
16 MR. McCORKLE: John McCorkle, Council 70,
17 LEC President, Philadelphia. I urge the Board to not
18 adopt this. Thank you.
19 INTL PRESIDENT FRIEND: Mark?
20 MR. GENTILE: Mark Gentile, USAirways
21 Council 40. Having gone through a couple of mergers
22 and so, the best-case scenario is always difficult,
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1 and I think this would really preclude any possible
2 agreement of ever occurring. It probably would be
3 used as a filibuster, for the most part.
4 We could have a situation in our case
5 example. There's probably close to 7,000 combined
6 Flight Attendants, and at 5500, we're in favor of a
7 tentative agreement, and were against, it would never
8 pass, and that's not indicative of the vast majority,
9 so I recommend this not be approved.
10 INTL PRESIDENT FRIEND: Lynne?
11 MS. CARAMELLO: Council 69, Boston.
12 Wouldn't management just love it, if we never got
13 together, if we never joined in unity? I see them
14 sitting back and each one of us fighting and never
15 getting along and living under, for USAirways East
16 now, this concessionary agreement, for America West
17 living under the tragic thing that they have.
18 I am not in agreement with this
19 whatsoever. Council 69.
20 INTL PRESIDENT FRIEND: Rob?
21 MR. WESSINGER: Rob Wessinger, Council 82,
22 USAirways.
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1 I strongly oppose this, although I do, you
2 know, admire Gary for bringing his message, for
3 bringing the message to the Board, you know, to
4 represent his members.
5 But I think the process has been in place.
6 I have always said, if it's not broken, don't fix it.
7 It's worked for all the other mergers, and I think I
8 strongly speak against this motion. Thank you.
9 INTL PRESIDENT FRIEND: Kate?
10 MS. DAY: Council 97. It's your opinion
11 about whether or not it's worked for other mergers.
12 And while I don't believe that always -- I mean, I
13 agree with this, in principle, because it would
14 facilitate making sure that airlines with smaller
15 numbers, really were considered when it came down to
16 negotiating a ratifiable agreement.
17 Without mentioning names, there's huge
18 division still about the decision to quote/unquote,
19 go for the money and give up the work rules in one of
20 our historic mergers.
21 I think that needs to be considered when
22 you look at this amendment, that without this, a
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1 negotiating committee of however large it becomes,
2 you run the risk of not truly allowing the smaller
3 Councils' needs to be addressed.
4 INTL PRESIDENT FRIEND: Gail?
5 MS. KIM-MOE: Kim-Moe, Aloha 54. I speak
6 in support of this Agenda Item. While true that
7 during a regular Section 6 negotiations, the majority
8 must rule, we're talking about a merger, a merger of
9 two equal halves coming together, and both should
10 have equal say.
11 I speak in support of this Agenda Item.
12 INTL PRESIDENT FRIEND: Does anyone wish
13 to speak, who hasn't already spoken?
14 If not -- Kathy?
15 MS. DUNHAM: Kathy Dunham, Minneapolis,
16 Council 95. I was here when Republic and Northwest
17 merged, and as a senior Northwest Flight Attendant,
18 at the time, we were -- am I allowed to say this --
19 represented by IBT.
20 (Laughter.)
21 MS. DUNHAM: And the leaders at IBT, voted
22 to put all the Republic people on the bottom. And I
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1 said, well, I'm a Northwest person, but how would you
2 feel if you were one of those Republic people?
3 Just because they're smaller, doesn't mean
4 they have less significance. So I'm in favor of it.
5 It's the right thing to do.
6 INTL PRESIDENT FRIEND: John?
7 MR. McCORKLE: John McCorkle, LEC
8 President, Council 70.
9 This is not about the needs of a smaller
10 base. We go back to, if you have the vast majority
11 that want to approve a contract, and a very small
12 minority that don't, that's not the history of this
13 Union. So it's not about not addressing their needs.
14 INTL PRESIDENT FRIEND: Diane -- I'm
15 sorry, I'm going to let people who haven't had a --
16 otherwise, it will be a debate between you and Gary,
17 if I let it go that way.
18 (Laughter.)
19 INTL PRESIDENT FRIEND: Diane?
20 MS. TUCKER: Tucker, Council 10. I
21 understand that this is an issue for the America West
22 Flight Attendants, and I understand that. I can
119
1 grasp that.
2 As an organization, as I said to both Gary
3 and to Mike, if we do not have a process in place to
4 bring a conclusion to issues like this, that is, is
5 anything really fair when a minority -- I mean, in a
6 contract that is ratified, there's a minority out
7 there who feels like they've been put upon, because
8 the majority ruled.
9 And this is fear-based and I understand
10 it. I know these people are fearful of losing their
11 places in their homes, in their states, and being
12 relocated. And I understand and grasp it, but there
13 has to be a conclusion at the end of the day.
14 And the Constitution is not silent on this
15 issue. A contract that has been -- a tentative
16 agreement is ratified by the membership, and in a
17 merger agreement, part of that process, is that you
18 have a merged seniority list, unless you're doing it
19 differently.
20 And so there is the list. That is the
21 constituency, and the majority of that constituency
22 determines the outcome of the tentative agreement.
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1 That is the principles of our Union, that is the
2 principles behind the Constitution and Bylaws.
3 It is not silent on this issue. And so
4 those are my remarks, and I speak against the -- with
5 all due respect, Gary.
6 (Applause.)
7 INTL PRESIDENT FRIEND: Anybody else?
8 Okay, last words? Who wants to go first?
9 MR. RICHARDSON: Thank you, Diane, and
10 everyone who voiced their concerns on this. It's not
11 about fear; it's about what our members believe to be
12 having an equal voice and an equal say in the
13 ratification process.
14 The Constitution addresses the specific
15 language that talks -- and I'm going to do it off the
16 top of my head, so, forgive me if I'm wrong, but it
17 says contract ratification votes falling under
18 Section 6 of the Railway Labor Act, will have a
19 membership ratification.
20 Merged agreements don't fall under this
21 particular -- under the Railway Labor Act. If they
22 did, we would have the ability to strike, and we
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1 don't.
2 So it does need to be addressed. There is
3 a concern out there, but, once again, it's not about
4 fear; it's about equality; it's about our membership
5 having the ability to have a say in this, and that in
6 their perception, that their vote will count.
7 And I do encourage you to vote in favor of
8 this Agenda Item. Thank you.
9 INTL PRESIDENT FRIEND: Dory and then
10 Mike. Dory?
11 MS. KLEIN: Dory Klein, Midwest 44. I co-
12 signed this Agenda Item when I came to be BOD this
13 year, but let me tell you what happened last year at
14 BOD.
15 We had a workshop on mergers and
16 acquisition. The room was packed. They had to bring
17 in extra chairs, so we knew we'd be talking about
18 this; we knew we'd be looking at each other, we knew
19 we'd be wondering who's going to align with what
20 airline.
21 I sat there and I looked, and I thought,
22 oh, I'm not going to worry. It was United with
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1 Continental; it was Northwest with Delta. I'm a
2 little carrier of 386 members today as I stand here.
3 I went home, and two months later, AirTran
4 gave a proposal for us. They're over a thousand
5 members. We have a merged seniority list that would
6 occur. Some of our members would go to the top,
7 because we've been here for 23 years, compared to
8 their lesser number of years, but our members still
9 felt that they wanted a say.
10 Even though we have things that protect us
11 in the Constitution and Bylaws, I think we have to
12 look around the room and say, what are we going to do
13 for each other and what are we going to do together?
14 This is a good consideration for all of
15 us. I didn't think it would happen to my Council.
16 What happened, in the end result, December passed,
17 AirTran upped the offer, and now we come to the
18 middle of August.
19 I'm flying on a Sunday, I come home from a
20 trip and I find out TPG has just put in an offer.
21 Wonderful. They're a private investment firm. Their
22 biggest holder is Northwest Airlines, 47 percent.
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1 So now I'm not dealing with AirTran; I'm
2 dealing with the membership of Northwest -- thousands
3 more. Please to consider this. Thank you.
4 (Applause.)
5 INTL PRESIDENT FRIEND: Mike?
6 MR. FLORES: Mike Flores, USAirways MEC.
7 (Discussion off the record.)
8 MR. FLORES: And it's hard, just like it
9 was hard two years ago, in Palm Springs, to not focus
10 on USAirways-America West. It's hard not to do that,
11 because that's what's happening, but, to me, what I
12 beg you to focus on, is the actual policy. Leave the
13 principles out of it, leave the size of the carrier
14 out of it.
15 Focus on the one thing that Diane said,
16 that there would never be any closure to the process,
17 if we allowed the minority to rule. Don't look at
18 me, don't look at Gary, don't look at USAirways,
19 don't look at former America West, don't look at
20 Northwest, don't look at any other airline, but look
21 at the policy and what it would lead to if this
22 Agenda Item were to pass.
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1 That's all I have to say. I really
2 appreciate your listening to me. Thank you, again.
3 (Applause.)
4 INTL PRESIDENT FRIEND: Willy?
5 MR. AVILES: Aviles, Council 58. I am
6 living proof of what can happen with mergers and
7 acquisitions. I was a former TWA Flight Attendant.
8 I know most of you, if not all of you, know exactly
9 what happened to our group.
10 We are now stapled to the bottom of the
11 seniority list. We did not have a say in the
12 process. I speak in favor of this resolution.
13 (Applause.)
14 INTL PRESIDENT FRIEND: Okay, let me
15 clear. This is not about the seniority merger
16 policy.
17 Our seniority merger policy is date of
18 hire. That is not what this is about.
19 MR. AVILES: The Constitution and Bylaws,
20 as I understand it, does not address mergers or
21 acquisitions in terms of this resolution. Is that
22 correct?
125
1 INTL PRESIDENT FRIEND: No, that's not
2 correct. We have a whole merger policy about how do
3 we create an integrated seniority list, how it gets
4 implemented, how we select a Joint Bargaining
5 Committee to negotiate a merged agreement.
6 If people are under the impression that
7 merged contract negotiations are not covered under
8 the Constitution, I urge you to read the merger
9 policy before you make a final decision on this.
10 I just don't want there to be some
11 misunderstanding. I've heard a couple of comments
12 about the seniority list. This is not about the
13 merged seniority lists.
14 Date of hire is date of hire. This has
15 nothing to do with that. Kate?
16 MS. DAY: Council 97. I'd like to call
17 the question.
18 INTL PRESIDENT FRIEND: That's in order.
19 Is there a second?
20 MR. GENTILE: Council 40 seconds.
21 INTL PRESIDENT FRIEND: Okay, and it's not
22 debateable. It does require two-thirds. If it
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1 passes, Gary was standing at the microphone. You
2 pass? Okay.
3 All those in favor of cutting off debate
4 and taking a vote on this item, please say aye.
5 (Chorus of ayes.)
6 INTL PRESIDENT FRIEND: Opposed?
7 (No response.)
8 INTL PRESIDENT FRIEND: The motion
9 carries.
10 Okay, we are on Agenda Item No. 22. The
11 Committee has no recommendation. All those in favor
12 of adopting Agenda Item No. 22, please say aye.
13 (Chorus of ayes.)
14 INTL PRESIDENT FRIEND: Opposed?
15 (Chorus of nays.)
16 INTL PRESIDENT FRIEND: The motion fails.
17 MR. RICHARDSON: Division of the house?
18 INTL PRESIDENT FRIEND: Division of the
19 house? If you are in favor of adopting Agenda Item
20 No. 22, please stand, and, remember, if you're
21 holding a proxy, to raise your hand.
22 (Delegates stand.)
127
1 INTL PRESIDENT FRIEND: Everybody standing
2 up that wants to vote yes on Agenda Item No. 22?
3 (Delegates stand.)
4 INTL PRESIDENT FRIEND: We'll start to my
5 left, counting off with Gary as number one.
6 (Delegates count and take their seats.)
7 INTL PRESIDENT FRIEND: Okay, if you are
8 voting no on Agenda Item 22, please stand. Again, if
9 you're holding proxies --
10 (Delegates stand.)
11 INTL PRESIDENT FRIEND: Again, starting on
12 my left with Chrisie as number one.
13 (Delegates count and take their seats.)
14 INTL PRESIDENT FRIEND: The vote is 21
15 yes; 45, no; the motion fails.